Click below to Play. Joining us today is Bobby Zafarnia, founder of Praecere, a Washington, DC. PR firm. As businesses move into 2012, social media and good public relations are becoming more and more essential. So grab your headphones, turn up the volume, and enjoy the conversation. In this episode of the Entrepreneur Addiction Podcast, we discuss: \tWatching Marine 1 \tHow PR has changed in the last 10 years \tWhy entrepreneurs can't do it all on their own \tThe importance of consultants for entrepreneurs \tHow RIM (Blackberry) was their own worst enemy \tSpin PR is bad PR \tWho should own social media? \tHow to measure ROI, or success with social and PR? \tWho is doing PR really well \tThe importance of listening \tKicking celebrities off planes \tDavid Letterman and Herman Cain \tWhat social channels to pursue \tPR trends for 2012 Click below to Play. Go here to download on iTunes. Click to download the mp3 If you can't listen, here's the text Cool Voice Guy: Fueling your business success, this is the entrepreneur addiction podcast, breaking the small business loan news you need if you obsess about your company. Heard exclusively on Lendio.com and patrickwiscombe.com. And now here are our your hosts: Brock Blake, Dan Bischoff and Patrick Wiscombe. Patrick: This podcast is sponsored by Lendio.com, the online source you need to find the right business financing to grow your company. So check them out: Lendio.com, to get your business growing right now. It's the entrepreneur addiction podcast episode number Seventeen. My name is Patrick Wiscombe. Thank you as always for tuning us in and taking us along wherever and however you're accessing the podcast, and I'm finding that most people are picking the podcast up on Lendio.com/blog. You guys are getting a lot of traction because I'm seeing a lot of downloads. Dan: Yeah, we've had almost 60,000 people to blog last month. Patrick: Are you serious? Dan: Pushing some good traffic there. Patrick: Man. Okay. So pick it up at Lendio.com/blog. That is the voice of Dan Bischoff director of communications at Lendio.com. It's always good to see you. Dan: It's great to see you as always. Patrick: We have a special guest, and I've had the privilege of talking to him before when I did a different podcast with a different company. It was actually a company I used to work for. Dan: Yeah, you used to? Patrick: The gentleman's name, he joins us via Skype from Washington DC, turns out that he's about a mile away from the White House. Dan: Yeah, he waves to Brock every morning, he says. Patrick: He sees Marine One as he takes off from the back lawn. Have you seen the Marine One? Do you see that on a frequent basis? Bobby: We see Marine One every single day. That I can say without exaggeration. The flight pattern comes, at least flying into the White House, flies from north to south. It flies low and it is loud. (laughter) Patrick: You know, I've only seen Marine One once, also, and I was thinking to myself, “Man, that things was loud.” Bobby: Yeah, it's a daily thing, and you can't miss it. It's big, it's dark, it's loud, and it definitely wakes the neighbors. Patrick: (laughter) Rattles the windows. That's the voice of Bobby Zafarnia he's the president of Praecere Interactive. They're a PR company in Washington DC. It's good to chat with you again. Bobby: Thanks for having me on again today. It was great to chat the last time, and I'm very pleased to be on the show again. Patrick: Now, I remember when we were, the last time that we talked, that we talking about crisis management for companies. Now, I know that, is it fair to say that you deal specifically, or maybe not specifically, but you do know how to deal with crisis management for companies or PR or whoever hires you to do their stuff. Bobby: It is, yes. It is a distinct practice area of Praecere. It is a service that we provide to all variety of organizations and individuals. Dan: How long have you been in the PR industry, Bobby? Bobby: I've been working in PR for eleven years now. Dan: How have you seen things changes in just a eleven years from what you were doing at first or what you were learned at school or coming up today? Bobby: Well, there's a couple of things, I think, that have changed significantly. They're sort of flip-sides of the same coin, which is one, at least when I first started, PR was largely a one way conversation. It's funny to think that it's kind of evolved in this short amount of time. I got my start in working with media and communication by working on politics, by working on political campaigns, and working on the press side of things. And in that case, we largely controlled the flow of the conversation. We were the ones that sort of issued the media narratives and developed them. Whether it was through press releases or press conferences or campaign events, that's what always set the tone in terms of where the candidates wanted to go and what were going to be the major issues and messages of the day. Sense then, again as we've seen, it doesn't take a whole lot of work to set up a Tumblr or set up your own Twitter feed and to start issuing messages on your own. Then having that medium all of sudden having influence over other parties. So if you want to take the same example of politics, politics now, for better or worse, are governed in that sense by more two-way communications, as apposed to one-way communication, because you've got citizens, you've got voters, people are engaged on line, and they're going to demand their voice is heard. And if the candidate or the campaign doesn't pay attention to them, chances are somebody else will whether it's the opposition or whether it's other groups who are in sympathy with that individuals concerns. So if you want to take that same idea of everyone's got a megaphone and a soapbox now that they can stand up on, I think the other way that PR has changed over the last few years, and kind of what seems to sort of be a dominant frame of mind these days, is that a lot of people think that they've got PR all figured out. I will be the first to confess again, like I said early I've been doing this for the last eleven years, I'm still learning every single day about this industry in terms of, not only of its evolution, but in terms of what resources are made available or what are the new tactics that come into play. That's a very frank confession. I will never ever say that I've got it all figured out and there's nothing left for me to learn. I'm always kind of blown away by reading a stray blog or two by, let's say, somebody who puts themselves out there as an entrepreneur or somebody who puts themselves out there as a small business owner, and I'm sure you've probably seen this before where they'll write a blog post that says, you know, “Hiring a PR firm is the biggest waste of money because you can do it all on your own.” I think you can kind of get some mileage, at first perhaps, you know, with initial instinctive outreach based on what you know. You know, knocking on doors, shaking hands, going to networking events, these are all forms of PR. But if you really want to be more sophisticated about it and get a little bit more bang for your buck, I think you're going to hit a plateau at some point in terms of what your expertise is as an entrepreneur or business owner. That's why we have consultants, and you've got to think of consultants in a larger sense. You know, an accountant is a consultant. A lawyer is a consultant. A marketer is a consultant. I put that same kind of thinking into the idea of who a publicist is. To me the publicist is a consultant too. You always turn to specialist when things get a little bit more complex and beyond the basic needs of what you need immediately. Patrick: So you're talking about PR as a consulting rather than a “take over your communication”, an independent third party who you can talk to? Bobby: Yes, because you have to... I think what will happen a lot of times with the entrepreneur is they get, rightfully, they get a little emotionally wrapped up at first in terms of launching their business or whatever it is they want to offer. And that's good because you have to have that passion to survive. You have to have that passion to get you past those first hurdles when people are telling you, “Oh, you're wasting your time Or, oh, you're business is going to fail. You're an idiot. Go back to doing whatever it was that you were doing.” If you don't have the passion to launch your own business and to really be dedicated to it and get you over the hard times, you are going to fail. Now the harm, I think, comes is if you're able to get past those first stumbling blocks and get a little bit of momentum, I think what happens sometimes with entrepreneurs is they start to think again, “You know what, I've got this all figured out. I'm the one who did it all by myself, and I don't need anybody to tell me how to do this or to do that.” And you can probably open up any curriculum in any business score and it will be littered with examples of that kind of hubris doing in a lot of companies where the people at the top think that they do not have to go to the outside and they do not need to look to specialists once they start to get at a certain point in terms of their business momentum. Blackberry and Rim are a perfect example of this in terms of the way they developed some of their more recent products and how they did a lot of this internally without seeking, you know, the support of outside specialists and consultants, but in particular the way they did their marketing and PR seemed to really come a lot from the top as apposed to creating a more robust idea of what communications is supposed to be. The end result of that is, taking a half a million write-down on the playbook, which I think was a major, major PR embarrassment for that company. So it's not just the product. It's the communications that revolve around it as well, and if you lose sight of that, I think that you're always going to run the risk of being your own worst enemy in business. Dan: Do you think people relate public relations to communications today, or is there kind of a stigma around PR as something like spinning messages and those kind of things? Bobby: I think that the way a lot of people look at it is they do think of PR as, you know, kind of a slick term. Again to go back to my example of Hollywood, you always see in films or movies... what's the one with George Clooney where he was the lawyer taking on the agri-business concern... Michael... Michael something. Patrick: I know what movie you're talking about. I'll look it up here. Bobby: The name will come to me in a second, but you see the portrayals in there of corporate PR people doing very dastardly things and putting a slick spin on it, and you come away with the idea of, you know, as the average movie goer that, “Oh my God, all PR people must be like this.” Dan: Yeah, I think spin PR is bad PR. Bobby: Spin PR is terrible PR because you're trying to create something out of nothing. You're basically trying to say black is white or up is down, but I think when it comes to PR in this sense, I like to think of it in the way a lot of people like to think about attorneys. We've all heard the cliché, “Everybody hates lawyers until you need one.” I think in that sense, you can apply the same analogy to publicists, and you can just as easily say, “Everybody hates public relations until they realize they need it.” I think the general attitude is still split but the momentum is definitely on the side of PR. I think what you're seeing these days is more and more examples of much more savvy communication strategies by a lot of companies. Our blog, at least lately, has taken a little bit of a focus on what companies have been doing wrong when it comes to communications. I don't think that that is fairly representative, and we're just as guilty of making some of these assumptions too, that nobody's out there doing it right. What I think is kind of interesting, at least when it comes to crisis PR, is that when it's done correctly you don't hear about an incident, or you don't hear about the company in the news. If it's done correctly there might be a quick twenty four, forty eight hours of negative press, but then after that it's gone. The reason that that happens is that the company has prepared smartly for it. They've put a crisis management plan in place before an incident happens. The roles have been designated. The holding statements have been done. The stake holders have been identified. There's been fire drills that have been rung before the incident, so that you can poke out weak problems in the plan and get those fixed. I think that that indicates that the role of PR and the role of communications heads, and in perhaps to some extent marketing, are being given that seat at the boardroom table, and they are being taken very seriously, especially in the current times where anything and everything about a company or an organization ends up going online. Whether you like it or not, you can't plug leaks. It's going to get out there. Go on the assumption that you're going to have to deal with it at some point and prepare accordingly. Dan: There's a big debate out there too about, you know, with social media becoming so big and content marketing becoming bigger, and reaching your audience is getting a bigger emphasis, there's a debate of who owns this whole thing. Is it the PR people? Is it advertising? Is it marketing? Is it the social media strategists, which kind of a recently made up term, I think? But who owns that, in your opinion? Bobby: I don't think there's really an answer yet to that question. At least what I see as the trend, and in what I think is a sensible way, and mind you my sensibilities could change tomorrow, but at least today what I think is a sensible way of going about it is to look at it for what it is. And that is, most social media strategies have been developed within the PR world, in terms of reaching out to customers or business partners or stake holders or anybody else. It's the publicists that basically developed these core strategies. It's the communication managers who have developed these core strategies, and they perfected them over time, over the last ten to twenty years. And they're just plugging it into a new medium of social media. If you want to look at it in that sense, look at the rest of the professional heads of say, a major company. Look at finance. Look at legal. Look at human resources and the like. All of those buckets, I think, are now slowly getting more and more up to speed and coming up to the same level of sophistication and understanding and appreciation as perhaps the PR department. But it really is still today, I think, the PR department that's got the most experience with the medium. Therefore, in that sense, and perhaps I'm saying this for a shameless plug for our industry, but in that sense I think that there ideas and there recommendations should be given a lot of serious consideration when it comes to developing these strategies and spending the budget to implement those strategies. Dan: I think you're right with PR. PR people are trained in telling a story and building a relationship with other people. Bobby: Right. Dan: And I think people hear PR and they forget it's relationships. That's what public relations is is building relationships with your audience. I think they forget that sometimes. But kind of going in a different direction, but again, how do we measure PR? What things should we measure? Is it we relate everything to sales or ROI? How should that be measured? Bobby: It's such a tough question, and it's another thing that I'll confess that I still don't know if I've got a fair answer to that. The industry has obviously been wrestling with this for quite some time. You know, even with the most let's say recent high profile effort, which are the Barcelona principles. For the listeners of this podcast who might not be familiar, the Barcelona Principles, I think that's what they're called, it has been a high profile effort that's been led by many top people in the PR industry over the last few years to develop what they think is a fair and sensible way of measuring return on investment in PR. And I think the fact that that discussion is even taking place indicates that there's still is significant disagreement as to how do we put a value on it. Do we do advertising value equivalency? Do we measure it by sales? If you're lucky enough to have a commodity, for example, that you can put a hard price tag on. Or if there's a way to directly measure consumers, customers coming in and out the door. Do we measure it by blog traffic on a site? You know, or by how many likes on a Facebook page? Or how many followers on a Twitter handle gets? You can see even in the last thirty seconds I've rattled off a whole wide variety of different metrics you can use. At least the way I like to look at it, and what I think has been working for our clients, is first having an understanding of what your business goals are. If your business goal is to develop a brand from scratch, and you don't have one, and your PR team helps you do that, then I think you've got a hundred percent return on investment. If your business goal is to create a presence on social media where one didn't exist before, and let's say in a couple more months you've got five hundred Facebook fans or five hundred Twitter followers, I would say your PR people are doing a good job. And it's amazing how a lot of smart and sophisticated business people come to, not only our PR firm, but just in my conversations with my colleagues across the industry, you know, these very good companies and these very good entrepreneurs will come with very basic PR questions because they haven't had the time to focus on these things. They've been busy building a business. They've been busy taking up office space or empowering employees, and all of sudden they realize, “You know what? We need to get the word out about what we're doing, and we haven't been doing that.” So to get good return on investment, I would at least look at it from the publicists side and say, “We have to do a good job of listening to our clients, keeping our mouths shut at first, which is hard for a publicists to do because we're in the business of talking, and understanding what they're business goals are, and then taking that and applying the right PR strategy or tactic to make that business goal a reality. Patrick: So really what it boils down to is it still boils down to the business owner defining what they're goals are, consulting you, since we've used that word in this podcast, “Is this a good idea? What do you recommend as a neutral third party?” Bobby: Yeah, and I would even add to that that, and this is no slight to the many potential clients out there. Knock on wood. You know, we hope that you come knock on Praecere's door. Again, a lot of very smart business people will often go to a PR firm and say, “Hey, PR Firm, we need to get some publicity. We know exactly what our problem is, and we know exactly what we need to get done. Our problem is this. And we want to do this. And we saw on your website that you provide that kind of service. Here's a check. Go get it done.” The analogy I like to think of is how sometimes we'll go into a doctor's office, you know, a patient will walk into a doctor's office and say, “Hey, Doc, I've been coughing the last week, but I remember there was some kid sitting next to me on an airplane coughing up a storm, and I know that's exactly why I'm sick, so give me the prescription, and we'll be done with it.” But the doctor will say, “Oh, okay you know what, why don't we run a couple of tests first to rule out that it's not this or it's not that, and then we'll go about devising a program to get you better.” It's the same thing with a good publicists or a good PR firm. They have to listen to their clients, and they have to have the courage to tell a potential client, “Look, yes, we do see some gaps in what you need with publicity, but we think there's a better way to go about solving it then perhaps what you might initially think. And here's the reasons why based on our experience and what we see in your target market or amongst your competitors, you know, we've done a competitive analysis, this is what's worked for this competitor. This is what's been a bomb for this other competitor, and here's what we think is going to work for you. Dan: Another analogy I think of too, is the HR department and, you know, the CFO, those people are not directly related to sales. They're not out there selling the product, and I think PR is somewhere in between. PR can contribute to sales, but I think relationships, reputation, awareness, and trust and trying to measure those things to see how your brand is doing with the public is probably a way we should measure a little bit more. Bobby: Right. Patrick: Is there someone who does PR really well that you just go, “Man, those guys just get it.”? Bobby: Well, you know, I think of companies that are bound by the realities of the regular media trade and news cycles and I think of companies that aren't. There's this mom and pop company out there called Apple. They make a few products you might have heard of called the, you know, the iPad and the iPhone. Patrick: Yes, I'm a new convert to the iPhone 4S. Literally within the last, let me see, I got it on Friday, so I haven't even got it a week, and I'm not an Apple fan (I want you to hear that above anything), but this phone is phenomenal. It's the only phone that I know of that actually gains in value as you use it, rather than another device that loses its value or it becomes old. Bobby: I think what's really interesting is that you've pretty much made my point, which is, you are now doing the PR for Apple. Just from what you said. I mean, take that statement, right, which is probably repeated a thousand times a day now across the world, you know, by people just like you who have picked up the phone. Now, take that same statement and let's transplant it to to a totally different company. Imagine if you were in your town and you were in a regular sized city, and you just started and you... burger joint. Let's use that as a hypothetical. And imagine if you were at your office and you were sitting in a conference room about to start a meeting with other people, and everyone's going around, “How was your weekend? What did you do?” And one person takes that same enthusiasm and that same real positive message that you just said about the iPhone and apply that to your burger joint. And it's a brand new burger joint. The nine other people in that room are going to hear that very loud and clear and are probably going to make a mental note, “You know, I should go check that out.” Patrick: Because so and so said it. Bobby: Because so and so said it. You know, we talk a lot about what's the importance, what's so great about social media, what's so revolutionary about it is that you're getting recommendations from people you trust, from people you know. So if you want to loop all of this back to your original question, you know: Who's out there doing it really, really well? I kind of want to flip that on its head and say, “Who's out there not really doing anything about it but are still getting magnificent results?” And Apple I think is a great example of that. Now, of course, they seem to operate on a whole other universe because they've got an incredible amount of good will based on just the raw value of their products. Patrick: Yeah, their history too. Bobby: It's just that their products are pretty over the top, and that clearly makes up for the lack of doing anything on social media. They don't have an official Twitter feed. They don't have a Facebook page. They just kind of go about doing whatever it is that they want to do. But a company that I think is doing it really, really well or has been doing it really well, and it's kind of funny that we're talking about airlines, is Southwest Airlines. I think that they've got a very, very smart social media policy and approach in place. A way that you can look at it is that you can take the Alec Baldwin incident, we can think about the incidents that that airline has had in kicking celebrities off their plane for, you know, all variety of reasons. They kicked off Kevin Smith the film director off. Dan: I've heard him talk about that. Bobby: He goes on. He still seems to be pretty hung up on it. Dan: He is. He still seems to talk about it. Bobby: Lead singer of Greenday got kicked off a plane one time for having his pants pulled down too low. They kicked off an actress from the show L Word off a plane for having a rather aggressive public display of affection. But what I think is really interesting is that Southwest has made something... I just saw in the last week something about a billion dollar gain off their acquisition of Airtrain. And that is the new story that people are talking about Southwest today. They're not talking about the celebrities that were kicked off their plane. And the reason why they're not talking about those incidents is because the airline handled all of them very, very effectively across social media by having smart and immediate and quick statements on their online news room on the official Southwest website. In other words, people didn't have to go fishing for an answer from the company. Or they didn't have to wonder, “Well, what is Southwest's position on this matter?” Because Southwest spoke for themselves. They didn't let other people define the terms of the conversation or the debate. They took the initiative. They put their foot down. They said, “This is exactly what our official position is.” And they didn't do it a vitriolic way. They did it in a very fair-minded way in terms of saying, “We've investigated the incident. This is the outcome. Our policies are X, Y and Z.” And they went about their business. Patrick: You know, that's well said. I don't think a lot of companies, like Herman Cain, not that we're going to tie this into politics, but my point is, I don't think people get out in front of this. It's like they hide behind it, and they can't, not in this day of social media, you can't be behind it. I think you nailed it with Southwest. They do get out in front of their stuff. Bobby: There's a really good distinction you can draw actually, and I think it was very telling, which was a couple of weeks ago, before he ended his campaign, Cain was on David Letterman as a guest. And in typical Herman Cain mode trying to be folksy and trying to be a little bit laid back and serious all at the same time, and here he is on this incredibly visible platform talking about these alleged past indiscretions in his life. Whether it was in sexual harassment, I don't think the allegations of the affair had come to light at this time. Patrick: No they hadn't. Bobby: But still there's this idea of somewhat of an imbalance in terms of dealing with general interactions and that kind of thing, and here he is talking to David Letterman about it. And if you recall, a couple of years ago, David Letterman was at the center of his infidelity matter, where he was being blackmailed by a network producer... Patrick: Wasn't that the 60 Minutes producer or something like that. Bobby: Yeah, I think he was a former 60 Minutes producer, and he went to Letterman and said, “Hey, listen. I've got this sensitive information about you, so unless you pay me, I'm going to go public with it.” Letterman went to the police. The police basically surveiled the guy, and he ended up going to jail over the whole thing. But what was very interesting, the way that we found out about all of this was from Letterman. It was not from the media. It was not from the blackmailer. It was not from the police of from somebody else. Letterman got out in front of it, and I think that's telling because, again, if you look at having Herman Cain on the episode, no one is thinking about, you know, “Well, Letterman had his own infidelity in the past, so this whole thing is really obnoxious.” All eyes were on Cain, and what that shows is, if you take control of these incidents and you talk about them on your own terms, and you sort of rip the band aid right off, nine times out of ten the whole matter is going to go away in the eyes of the public. People will forget about it in the long run, and so I think that's the lesson we can derive from that. Patrick: As Dan and I were driving in, we were talking on the phone about the things that we should talk about on the podcast, and I made the comment about Herman Cain. He did not get out in front of this. In fact, he let it simmer for days. Bobby: Yeah. Patrick: The damage was already done, and I think I made the comment to you Dan that, I'm like, “You know what, I'm not sure I would vote for Herman Cain just because he can't manage his own crisis because he never got out in front of it. Bobby: Yeah, it's telling, and I think if people, at least when it comes to politics, are going to tell themselves the same thing that they might say about, let's say, a tone-deaf CEO. If the tone deaf CEO goes out there addresses a PR crisis with his or her company, and it goes over like a lead balloon, I think their average or potential customer, you know, is going to think, “If this is the way that they run their company, why should I trust their product or service that I buy from that company?” And every single political campaign is going to run into this kind of stuff. I mean, you're not immune from it. There's no magic politician out there. You're going to get heat. You're going to get people from the past digging up all kinds of nasty stuff about you. That's the reality. The truth is, and what's always going to speak loudest is how do you deal with it, and by giving inconsistent accounts or denying something that is flatly true that speak to how, let's say in Cain's place, he might potentially handle a major international incident if he was president or a major domestic incident if he was president. I mean, we extrapolate from these things, and we have certain expectations of how companies and individuals are supposed to behave, and if those expectations are not met, I think at its core there's always a PR issue that's not being handled properly. Patrick: We do have one last question. We want to talk about any of the trends that could take place in PR in this coming year. Anything that you can forecast that you can pass along to the Entrepreneur Addiction Listeners? Bobby: One thing that seems to be resonating more and more, in particular with the advent of Google+ on the scene as the sort of new social media darling of the day, is this whole idea of social media fatigue. People are starting to get, I think, a little bit overwhelmed. How much more stuff do I have to pay attention to on every single day. “Oh, great. Here's something else that all my friends want me to join up on. I'm getting a little tired of this.” And I think in twenty-twelve what I think we're going to see, and what I anticipate seeing, this idea of just a nugget of advice, which is, pick one or two or three things, say if you're the small business owner, and do those couple of things very well. As apposed to trying to be the master of a hundred different things. You're never going to have the time or the resources to do that. If you find that you're getting the best return on investment, for example, by engaging fans or customers or anybody else that's interested via Facebook, then go all in on Facebook, and make that your ultimate focus strategy. So if you look at that as social media, it's going to be, pick a couple of things and then do those things really well as apposed to trying to be the 'be all end all' of anything and everything across social media because tomorrow something new is going to come up. There's going to be the latest social media platform, and we can't expect ourselves to be on top of every single thing all the time. Then I think the other thing is too, and a lot of what we've been talking about, the common thread of everything we've been discussing on this podcast, is PR is getting taken more and more seriously every single day. Again, whether it's by the small individual business person all they way up to the Fortune 500 CEO. And if that's the case, I think what it shows, which is what I've always believed and now what more and more people are coming to believe, is that PR is a very, very smart investment that you can make. It really does not cost a lot against the budget or what you might have in place for everything else you need to take care of for your business. And if you hire a good PR firm, you've done your vetting and you establish a good partnership and relationship with the service provider, it will go a long way in terms of getting return investments. So I think those are going to be two big trends to keep your eye on for next year. Patrick: So focus. Do something really well. Dan: Yeah, I think Orabrush is a good example of that too. They just hit the YouTube, and they've got millions of sales. Patrick: Who is this? Dan: Orabrush. Patrick: Oh yeah. Dan: Just this last year they've sold millions of these tongue brushes just because of YouTube. They just hit YouTube hard. The don't do too much else. Bobby: Look at Will It Blend, another good example. Dan: Yeah that's right. Patrick: Oh, Will It Blend is terrific. We did a podcast with the guys at Will It Blend... Bobby: And that's there thing. It's just videos. Just videos. I'm sure they've got other things going on, but you think of their videos, and the reason why is because they're doing really, really well. Patrick: Alright, we've been talking with Bobby Zafarnia president of Praecere Interactive. Praecere.com is there web address. You can also contact Bobby in his office at firstname.lastname@example.org. Or you can just call him directly at 220-277-0800. Bobby Zafarnia, thank you. Bobby: Thank you guys very much. Patrick: So for Bobby, Dan Bischoff director of communications at Lendio, it's always good to see you. Dan: It's great to be here. Patrick: My name is Patrick Wiscombe. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast at Lendio.com/blog. You can also pick it up on my website, PatrickWiscombe.com. So for Bobby, Dan, I'm Patrick. Thanks for listening to this week's addition of the Entrepreneur Addiction Podcast. We'll talk to you next week. Voice: Making business loans simple, this has been the entrepreneur addiction podcast, helping you secure the capital you need, with your host Brock Blake, Dan Bischoff, and Patrick Wiscombe. Heard exclusively at Lendio.com.