Click below to Play. Go here to download on iTunes. Click to download the mp3 The best way to go from point A to point B is rarely a straight line. Rich Christiansen, co-founder of more than 32 businesses and author of The Zig Zag Principle, outlines how success in business follows the natural law of "zigzagging" to success. In this episode, we discuss: \tFamilies in the Himalayas \tWhat is the Zig Zag principle? \tChanting with the monks \tWhy you should go away from your goal \tDancing in my tutu \tQuickest path to profitability \tDetour around obstacles \tFailure is part of the equation \tFailing efficiently \tHow to know if a business idea is a good one \tAdd processes and resources \tBuild your team to achieve goals \tForm an intervention network \t3 critical pieces of advice Click below to Play. Go here to download on iTunes. Click to download the mp3 If you can't listen, here's the text: Fueling your business success, this is the entrepreneur addiction podcast, breaking the small business loan news you need if you obsess about your company. Heard exclusively on Lendio.com. And now here are our your hosts: Brock Blake, Dan Bischoff and Patrick Wiscombe. Patrick: This podcast is sponsored by Lendio.com, the online source you need to find the right business financing to grow your company. So, check them out: Lendio.com, to get your business growing right now. It's the entrepreneur addiction podcast episode number eleven. My name is Patrick Wiscombe. Thank you as always for tuning us in and taking us along wherever and however you're accessing the podcast today. We have a terrific show (like we're going to say otherwise). Dan: Yeah's it's going to be great. Patrick: We're going to be talking with the author of brand new book. It's only been out for about three weeks. Rich Christiansen the author of The Zig Zag Principle: 'the road to success is never a straight line'. It's kind of funny that we're talking about this. That, as I was driving to Disney Land, what was it a couple weeks ago? Dan: Yeah. Patrick: As I was driving across the desert, I was looking at the freeway system, going, “Why don't we just drive in a straight line? Why do we have to go all over the place?” Joining me for the podcast, as he does every single week, Dan Bischoff the direct of communications at Lendio. It's always good to see you. Dan: Oh, yeah, it's great to be here again. Patrick: And, let's bring in the author of said book, "The Zig Zag Principle: the road to success if never a straight line." Rich Christiansen, it's good to have you here. Rich: Thank you so much Patrick and Dan for having me. I'm excited to meet with you for a few minutes. Patrick: Dan forwarded an article to both you and I that was posted in Forbes talking about what scares entrepreneurs. Dan: On Halloween, too. Patrick: Oh, Yeah. It's kind of timely. Let's talk about what scares entrepreneurs here for a second. I saw the first thing that was mentioned in this article was losing your drive. Do entrepreneurs lose their drive, Rich? Rich: You know, I think at times it is risk. It's burn out. I think at times we jeopardize, and we get so deep in the throat of it, it's like, “Why am I doing this?” So I think there is risk of that. I talk often times about 'climbing high and sleeping low'. Maintaining a life balance. And I think it's a really important part of keeping your head straight, so you don't crash and burn. So, I think it's a valid fear. Dan: I was surprised by some of these topics too. In my mind, I always thought that the biggest thing that scares you is failure. Right? Of losing everything. Or going bankrupt or something. But some of these things like losing your drive, and also what is in here is losing your reputation, and some of those things. But besides of failure, what other things do you think? Rich: Failure is part of it. But I think the other side of it is, is the success. I know, you know, I've had a couple of pretty good successes throughout my career. And thinking, “Hey, do I still have it me? Am I all that?” Because people start looking at you and expecting you to always to preform. And you know, I have to admit even in the last couple of weeks, I'm just gassed out from this book. I'm just completely gassed out. (laughter) Some mornings I wake up and say, “Man, do I still have it in me? Can I get this next one going?” And you know, you reach deep and you go and do it, but I believe that indeed is a fear, that people who are really driven face is, “Do I still have the capacity?” I run a team of teen entrepreneurs and moms, and I got beat the other night by my son in a board game called Acquire. And I'm sitting there thinking, “Man, my son's getting smarter than me. I really got to up my game.” I think that's just wired in us entrepreneurs, you know? So I get it. I big time get it. Patrick: Well, with regards to the book, how much time did you put into it. I mean, you've been on the promotions tour for the last three weeks. And you mentioned just before we started recording that it's number six. Is that what you said? On the Inc. 500? Rich: Yeah, it hit number six this month on Inc. (clapping) That's right. And it hit number five, I think, on USA Today, and it was number one when it was released in all its categories on Amazon. Patrick: So here's the round of applause: (clapping) Dan: Yeah. Rich. Thank you. Patrick: How long did it take to put his book together? I mean, when you came up with the idea, how much time have you been working on it? Rich: Well, you know, the concept actually came up a couple years ago as I was writing my prior book, Bootstrap Business, which actually took two years, three months, and nine days to complete. Patrick: Oh, dear. Rich: But this one, I actually formally started it one year ago. But it has been a crazy intense year. You talk to any author who's pushed something on of this nature, and they'll tell you, “Man, that was one of the hardest things I've done.” Indeed, I've just had the baby, and now I'm in recovery. But it's been a crazy, very intense year. To put it in contrast, I think that if I had put this much energy into a business I would have a ten million dollar business right now. (laughter) Most authors write a book for some purpose to start a business or to have a training program or something like that. And I think to come at this book with the right approach. After I sold my last business, I took my family to the Himalayas, and I just got a chance to do a lot of reflecting in my life and what was going on in the country. Dan: The Himalayas? Patrick: I was like, “Who takes their family to the Himalayas?” Rich: Well, it's one of our family passions is mountain climbing. What I did last summer, I took a couple of months and, I have a little Sherpa daughter that I raced, and we went back for a little celebration, and a number of the famous climbers of the big mountains were my friends. And so, we went back to watch the climbers come off of Everest last season. And while I was in the Himalayas, hanging out with my family, I realized how crazy! and how insane! it was how most of us are doing business. You know, nine out of ten small business failure is just completely unacceptable. And I'm sitting there in the Himalayas looking at Everest in the distance, and I realized, “What would happen if I took my family and charged up that mountain? Only four of five of my kids died. Woa! I beat the odds.” You know, completely unacceptable. (Laughter) Patrick: Is vacation time good for entrepreneurs? Just to get some perspective? Rich: I think it's phenomenally important. You know, in the book Bootstrap Business I wrote, my favorite chapter is Climb High, Sleep Low. I think it's the biggest risk that we face as entrepreneurs is burn out and driving and pushing so hard we end up just doing repetitively stupid things. So I think part of the zigzag principle is going out balance to extremes. Taking vacations and really going down, and then pushing really hard in business. You know, I don't walk a perfect straight line in my life. I go out in extremes, pushing really hard in different aspects of life. So I think it's really important that you take reflect time. Dan: Let's identify the zigzag principle and what that is, if you would. Rich: So, what I call the zigzag principle is a fundamental law in life and in nature. You know, as you came up to your studio today, you didn't drive directly there. If you had, you would've hit a dog or ran into the pond or crashed into guard rail or stop sign or something. Rivers don't flow in straight lines. Mountain peaks are formed with jags. The zigzag principle is fundamentally a tactical step (I'm sure we'll talk about in a minute what those steps are) of how to get to your destination by going in indirect paths, avoiding the big, hairy obstacles. You know, when I was in the Himalayas with my kids, I discovered I spent most of the time indirectly going and chanting with the monks or hanging out at Apa Sherpa's lodge or eating apple pie in Nancy Bazaar, zigging and zagging all over the place. It wasn't until two or three week later that we actually got to high altitude, and I was able to see the beautiful views of Everest. So, my contention is that we're far more likely to succeed if we slow ourselves down a little bit and deliberately take tactical, in-turn steps that are often times not directly aligned with the goal. Another great example of this is the mission to the Moon. You know, ninety-eight percent of the time, the space craft are off target. It's only two percent that they're correcting that gets them on target. So I believe avoiding big, hairy obstacles, and zagging around those obstacles is the fundamental premise of the zigzag principle. Patrick: Alright, let's talk about 'zig principle' number one. Is that the right way to phrase that? Rich: You bet. Patrick: Okay, it's the drive to profitability, and that's principle number one. Let's talk about that for a second. Rich: Okay, super. So here's what my zigzag looks like. I assess my resources. I figure out exactly what I have to work with. I indeed set a crazy, hairy, big, obnoxious goal. I then do a what is called a 'catalyzing statement', or my elevator pitch to align people with me. I set my boundaries. These are the paths I'm willing to go and not go. Then I look at my goal and I go away from my goal. I indirectly, do not go to the goal. The first thing I do... Patrick: That just seems a little counteractive to, ah, “Okay, I've set my goal. Oh, let's go to the right, or let's not doing something.” Why do you say that? Rich: Okay, so the number one thing I look at is, “What is the quickest path to get me to profitability? Of the fifty, sixty-five things that I come up with that are in general alignment with that, what's the quickest path to cash? What is it that maybe I really don't want to do, but it's in this genre, but it can take me to profitability quickly?” You see, what most people do is they set that goal out there: “Oh, we're all in! Oh, let's go to Vegas! Let's put everything on black! Oh, mortgage our house! Take out the last bit of our savings! Race there and hopefully spin the roulette wheel.” And we wonder why nine out of ten small businesses fail. What I contend is, allocate a set amount of resources, how much you're willing to risk. For me it's typically five to ten thousand. I've now founded or co-founded thirty-two businesses. Eleven failures. 13 million dollar successes. They were all started with five to ten thousand dollars, and okay, so I say, “That's what I'm willing to risk.” Then I say, “Okay, what's the quickest path to profitability here? What's the thing that I could do?” Maybe I don't even want to do it. I call it dancing in my tutu. (laughter) Then I charge out with all I'm worth... Dan: It's not a bad title actually. (laughter) Patrick: No. I think we have a title for the podcast. (laughter) Rich: (laughter) Well, you know, we all have to do sometimes things that we're not super excited about. Often times in the form of bootstrapping, it's service oriented. I remember creating a company a bit ago called Castaway. I vowed I would never do SEO. I swore on my life it was a skill I'd had. First thing I did when I created that company is I put my tutu on. I went and got a couple of big clients out of New York: Warner Music; McGraw Hill; and Michael Blaines; and some other big names. Did SEO for them, but I instantly had 30-40 thousand dollar retainer for doing it. And what do I have? (Breathing) I have oxygen. I can breath. I'm alive, you know. So I have a place to keep my business going. Whereas most people, “I'm going to go do this thing. I'm going to build this crazy amazing technology. Ah!” Race out into the dark. Charge. Get halfway there. Run out of oxygen and die. “And maybe it's what I love but I die doing it.” And I think that's just insanity. The zig number one in my approach is always drive to the closest path to profitability in the general direction of your big goal. Dan: This sounds like you're talking about a different way of funding your business then, to funding your main goal by doing, maybe, some other things. Right? It kind of what it sounds like. A little bit of bootstrapping. Rich: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's a time to end it definitely. For venture capital. For angel investing. Dan: What I mean is, when you're talking about, you're doing some SEO so you can get your goal, it's almost a way to fund your company by zigzaging different routes to find that money to keep you float for a while. Rich: Yeah, absolutely. I think that the number one thing it does is gets you viable, so you can control your destiny. You know, so you can get to a level of profitability where you're going, so you can fund the next venture. So indeed it's the arc form of bootstrapping. The second thing it does is, it actually slows you down a little bit. I've had three, well, I've basically lost two life's fortunes, and both times it was when I took everything and just raced towards this big, hairy, crazy goal. Got to the destination. But by the time I got there, the market had shifted. So this approach actually also does slow you down, allowing you, just like when you're hiking the switchbacks, or just like you're skiing, it allows you to make adjustments. And you see actually better opportunities that crack out, as you sequence these, the zig zag zig, I always work in sequences of three, slows me down a little bit and allows me to meander a safe path and detour around the big, scary, hairy obstacles. Patrick: I actually had a business fail. I was selling computer components ten years ago. And you know, we were going along great, fantastic. It was when e-commerce was really in its infancy. We were on Yahoo. We were doing fine. Then September 11th happened and everyone realized, or at least it's my interpretation, that it really shocked the nation, really is what happened. Then computer components really became insignificant. People said, “Well, you know what, maybe we can just live with what we do.” My business failed. Flat out. Rich: You bet. Patrick: But also in the process, I think the failure is what made me personally a better person. So let's say, while I don't want to talk about the failure, per say, what were some of the failures that you had that propelled you forward because you learned something different. Rich: Well, I think failure is just part of the equation of being an entrepreneur. It's a really important aspect to being an entrepreneur. It's part of the lifestyle. I will often comment that I still fail. I just fail far more efficiently than the average individual. Patrick: (laughter) Failing efficiently. I like that. Rich: Yeah. The key is to fail efficiently. Indeed, I think it's that the most single powerful aspect of the zigzag concept or principle. Number one, it takes the scarcity out because here's what my zigzag will look like: “Okay, I'll take five or ten thousand dollars. I'll allocate three months of time to get this to profitability. I'm going to dedicate this relationship capital into it. This much time. This much resource. Then great. Can I live with it if it loses? Yeah. I can live with it. I don't want to.” Then I charge at it for all tomorrow. After three months or six months, or whatever I allocate, if it hasn't hit success, I say, “Huh. Darn it. That was terrible. It was miserable. Dust myself off. Call it a failure. Go back and go after the next one.” What most people do is, they'll spend a year, five years, ten years with no definition chasing the stupid idea they had no right in the first place even chasing. Then they end up getting midway through their life, and they've wasted half of their life. Dan: Speaking of chasing that dumb idea that you talked about that people pursue. How do you determine if a business idea is worth going after? Rich: Great question. You know, it's probably one of the top questions asked of me. Probably on a daily basis, I get people who ask me, “Okay, I've got this idea. What do you think of that?” I have actually a sequence that I go through in determining the ideas I go after. I don't take the first idea. I typically get forty to fifty ideas. The top tool that I use is the modified Porter model. I actually have that tool for free on my website. We built it out because so many people are asking me about it. Got to ZigzagPrinciple.com. Look under tools. There's a free idea. Stupid idea/good idea assessment tool. That's the first level of betting. Once it gets through that, then I take it through a sequence of three or four other tools that our outlined really clearly in Zig Zag Principle. Indeed, the ideas are the easy part. Is it a stupid idea or a bad idea is the harder part. I always like to increase my odds by getting the best ideas possible. Did that answer your question? Dan: That's surprising. Patrick: I'm assuming this is the tool that you put together to see if an idea is either good or bad? Rich: Yeah. That's exactly right. It's called stupid idea/bad idea. It's based on Michael Lee Porter out of Harvard. Incredibly complicated model. But I dumbied it down. Anyone can run it. Patrick: Alright. Now one of the questions that I had was, and I think you just address this, but when you have an idea, you run it through your business model. Which I'm going to take a look at for me personally. ZigzagPrinciple.com. Correct? It's under the tools section? Rich: That's correct. There's three or four free tools that can really help you. All for free. Patrick: Tell us about who you council with. Do you bring your wife into the business conversation? Or do you keep that seperate? Rich: 100%. Absolutely 100%. My wife and I at night, we have what we call our three mile talks. I'm very blessed to have a brilliant wife. My wife reads more business books than I do actually. Dan: That's a long talk. Patrick: (laughter) Three mile talk? Rich: Oh, it's awesome. It keeps me sane actually. One of the sections I talk about in the book is called guardrails. I have what's called my intervention network. It includes my wife, a very trusted business partner, my accountant, and my attorney. Any time that I start violating or breaking any of guardrails or my rules or need quote 'intervention in my life', they call me on my behalf and sit me down exactly like you would a heroine addict and bring me back to proper prospective. (Recording undecipherable) If I ever get crazy out of balance violating one of the fundamental tenants that I agreed that I wouldn't do than my intervention network, just like a heroine addict, will call me into the room, sit me down, and make sure that I get back in balance. It's a crazy thing for us entrepreneurs. We're supposed to be tenacious to no end. Never quit. Never give up. Then on the other hand, supposed to shift gears in a moments notice. That's really hard to reconcile. My intervention network actually helps me with that. Patrick: Who else, if you don't have anyone to talk to, or they don't want to talk about your business because they're tired of talking about. Who do you go to? Who do you recommend? Rich: Well, I think that there's all sorts of mentoring networks and entrepreneur networks. I think even your organization included, probably, would fall into that category. But I would get a like group of individuals that you can trust that can start vetting and talking ideas through because at the end of the day if you're only looking at it by yourself, you're going to miss some pretty big holes and be in danger. I can't imagine living my life that way. Definitely reach out to an entrepreneur network. Or find some trust relationships that you believe are positive or are abundant thinkers. Patrick: Any particular network that you like personally? Rich: For college students, I love this CEO Network. In our local geography there's several. On a national basis there are a few bids that mentor had actually found an was really impressed with. I guess, I haven't used any of them extensively just because I already have a very cool personal network. Patrick: We've already discussed principle number one, which was drive to profitability. Let's go to principle number two, which is the 'zag'. We talked Zig One, drive to profitability. Let's to zag. Number two: adding processes and resources. Let's go there. Rich: Okay. Super. Thank you so much. As I set this up, I set my beacon in the fog. Then I sequence zig, zag, zig. I always work in threes. My first one, as we've talked about, is always profitability. I'll allocate 65% of my resources. My time. My money. Everything. Working on that. Then at the same time, I'll actually allocate 25% of my resources and begin looking at that next turn, which is always “Add processes. Add resources.” This is the point where you start adding team members, employees, scaling it just a little bit, and documenting what worked and what didn’t work. Phase number one, you're the butcher, the backer, the patty cake maker. You're absolutely doing everything. You're figuring out everything that works, everything that doesn't, and that second phase you start documenting it and bringing other people in and actually having them repeating and duplicating the process that you did while you become the coach, rather than the butcher, the baker, and the patty cake maker. Dan: The first one is zig. To find out how to make immediate money. The second one is to get the right people on board, basically. Is that right? Rich: Yeah. Adding people. Then adding the processes and resources. Most people say, “Oh, so all you do is focus on that first one about profitability.” No. Actually not. I'm actually looking ahead. Picture the last time you went skiing. You just don't point your ski tips and zoom down the mountain or you'll break your neck. Likewise when you're getting ready to ski in paralleling, you'll look to the side but you'll also kind of looking, “Okay, where's that next turn? Where's the one after that?” A little bit. But you're primarily focused on that first turn. Same concept here. You kind of look three ahead. 65% of your resources to profitability. 25% of my resources go to adding resources and processes. As I'm going through and adding that profitability matrix, I'm starting to document processes a bit, and starting to put a structure in place. This part freaks a lot of people out. “Oh, man. How boring, laborious. I don't want to be doing that process documentation.” But it's actually not that hard. The little company that we proved it, by the way, really fun. I always believe in proving it. I grew a business from five thousand dollars to 4 million dollars in about a year following this. What we did with the team is I identified thirteen processes that needed to be documented. I stapled a twenty dollar bill to the title of each of those. I hid them around the office. Like an Easter Egg hunt, when the team came in, I said, “Hey guys, Easter Egg hunt. Whoever documents process, can't be more than ten steps, gets the twenty dollar bill. You can imagine how quickly we got the processes documented. Patrick: What's your favorite business so far, of all the businesses you've started? Are they all your favorite? Or do you have one that's kind of extra close to your heart? Rich: Oh. You know, I've had several that were just a kick in the pants fun. I've had an international trading business that was just really, really a lot of fun. We had a lead gen business that was a lot of fun. Right now I've got a little business running with a group of super smart, geek teenagers. They're knocking it out of the park. It's in the coupon space. They're driving leads and just generating gobs of traffic in the coupon space. That's a really fun business. Dan: What was your lead gen company? Rich: Right when the mortgage space was really starting to heat up, I created a website called mortgage saver 101, and brought mortgage leads to many of the large institutional mortgage lenders. I called it my fifty dollar machine. That was a real kick in the pants business. Dan: The zigzag principle, does it cover every industry or every type of business, whether a consultancy, a service, a franchise, a ... Rich: I've had business that succeed, and I claim that it 100% works. I've done it from real estate to lead generation to technology, definitely technology, to trading. There's only one business type that if I give you advice in it, don't do it. Do the exact opposite because I really suck at it. (laughter) It's retail. I'm not good at retail. But I can say all the other businesses are rock solid. Dan: How do you do it without getting lost in your zig? Rich: Okay. That's a great question. That's the question that comes after the third zig. If I could, can I jump to the third zig. Then I'm going to talk about guardrails. Putting guardrails in place is how you keep from going into the weeds. The third zig is adding a scale element. Something that can repeat over and over. This is where you put a franchise in place, or you bring a big website and push tons of traffic to it for mass replication. So, zig number one: profitability. Zig number two: add resources and processes. Zig number three is adding a scale element. Dan: So it's really a zig, zag, zig principle? Right? Rich: Yeah. Zig, zag, zig. Then you just repeat those three steps over and over and over. When you get to the first zag, and you've clearly identified the target, you hit the profitability number, then you add the third sequence. You just sequence in steps of three to get your goal. What I found is that it takes about six or seven, sometimes eight, zigs or zags to end up getting to my goals. The danger only worse than pointing my skis directly down the mountain and charging down, crashing, and breaking my neck, is what if I then turn to my left and zig and run way off into the weeds and run off into the trees and end up breaking my neck on a tree. That's equally as bad. I believe in putting in two place of guardrails in place. The first set of guardrails is very clearly identified targets that lie and tie in with the zig or the zag. So I will right up front say, “I will dedicate to this project 10 thousand of capital or fifty thousand or hundred, or whatever you want to put to it.” I'll allocate this much time to it. I will only dedicate these five relationships because I don't want to burn up all my relationship capital. I will assign this intellectual capital. This percent of my time and resources to do that, and then you charge at it with all that there is tomorrow. Then if you don't hit it, then you say, “Okay, stop. Done.” You know, back we go. That's the failing efficiently part of it. So that's the first set of the guardrails is clearly identifying how far you're willing to go on that zag. There's a book called the E Method. Great book. It identifies that individual as the technician. Indeed, how you get yourself to shift out of that is to clearly put the guardrail in place of how far you're willing to go. At that point, putting reward systems in place to switch to another behavior and to get sequencing forward other than charging off into the weeds. Patrick: Have you ever changed your guardrails? Moved them? Rich: Yep, and that can actually be really dangerous. That's where your intervention network comes into place. It's important that you get buy in from you intervention network if you're ever going to move those guardrails. The second set of guardrails are actually the most important that you firmly solidify. I personally have seven or eight guardrails. I'll give you an example of a few of those. Everyone has to have their own second set of guardrails. Some of things that I put in mine is I will not sign personal guarantees on businesses that I don't have at least 50% ownership. Yep. There's a story there. I have to control and audit the finance on a monthly basis, so I directly control the finance. I will never put my home or my family at risk ever again. Yep. Another story there. There's certain types of business I just don't get involved in. For example, I won't do porn or gambling websites even though I could make a ton of money on that. If I ever get out of alignment only slightly, that's when my intervention network sets in and calls me back in to context. That actually helps me put a guardrail firmly down and then make that critical turn onto the next zig or the next zag. Patrick: What advice would give entrepreneurs and small business owners, Rich? Rich: I think there's three pieces of advice that I would give. First of is to realize that it really is the journey, not the destination. It does require a lot of hard work but, boy, it's the most glorious and incredible and amazing way to take control of your life that can happen. Just enjoy the ride and realize that failure is part of the equation and just acclimate to it. But just build systems in that when you have little failures or little bumps it doesn't end up killing you. That's number one. The second is, don't give up the things that are most important in your life, namely your family, your trust relationships, your dear friends. So often in entrepreneurship to succeed you have to become this brutal capitalist, and at all cost give everything up and sacrifice everything. And I would contend that that's the opposite thing that you should do. Indeed, you can be very successful by holding on to your health, your trust relationships, and your family. So make sure that you keep that balance. Indeed, as you find yourself in a situation where your significant other is going to cause incredible, intense conflict to that stage, it's okay to hold back until it's an appropriate time. Don't jeopardize the most important things in your life. And then I guess the third aspect is if you're doing it just for the money, that's a really weak motivator. Money and cars and Lear Jets or whatever else, that's really not a powerful motivator. Dan: Going to the Himalayas? Rich: Yeah, literally. Right now my goal is to educate a thousand young men and young women in third world countries, and that gets me up in the middle of the night and inspires me. It motivates me. It's so big it just absolutely scares me a little bit, and I think that you have to have a purpose bigger than just making money to help you endure kind of the rough spots. I just tell everyone it's an amazing life, and it's the best way to take control of your future that I know. And I challenge everyone to go forward and zigzag and have just a joyful life. Patrick: Yeah. Dan: Yeah, that's great. Patrick: I've always enjoyed talking with small business authors and you're definitely no different. Rich: Well, thank you so much Patrick and Dan. I've really enjoyed visiting with you all. Patrick: Rich Christensen the author of the ZigZag Principle: the goal setting strategy that will revolutionize your business and your life. Be sure to pick up his book. Dan: Yeah, thanks for being on, Rich. Rich: Thrilled to have been on, guys. It's a wonderful thing you're doing here. I really appreciate your time. Patrick: Tell us where they can pick up the book. Rich: You know, the book should be in most the book stores. I'd love for you to pick it up at ZigZagPrinciple.com because then you tie into us. We have a free blog where I'm offering insights on a weekly basis, and we have all those free tools: E-tests; the zigzag GPS; the good idea/smart idea tools. So I would love to have you pick it up there. If not, it's on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, most the book stores. You should be able to find it. Patrick: Alright. ZigZagPrinciple.com. Be sure to get your free tool to see if your idea is even worth pursuing. You know, there's a lot of people out there. It's been my experience, they're like, “I have this great idea!” And then you just listen to them for a minute, and either you don't get it or they're so far over your head, you're like, “Dude, you're not going to make money on this.” Rich: Yep. You know, that's so true. It's starting with a good idea takes half of the... it takes the wind right out of it if it's a stupid idea. And so this tool will help tons of people avoid the dumb ideas. It's a simple little tool to run, and it can help you vet your dumb ideas and your good ideas. Patrick: Right. Check it out. ZigZagPrinciple.com. Rich Christensen is the author of the ZigZag Principle. Great to talk to you, and nice to meet you. Rich: Thanks so much Patrick and Dan. Patrick: Dan Bischoff director of communications at Lendio.com, always good to see you. Dan: You too. Patrick: My name is Patrick Wiscombe. Thank you for listening to the Entrepreneur Addiction Podcast. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast on Lendio.com/blog. Or you can also got to my website, which is PatrickWiscombe.com. And also available just within the last couple of weeks: ABC4.com. It's actually under the Tech section. Three great places to pick it up. So for Rich Christensen, Dan Bischoff, I'm Patrick Wiscombe. Thanks for listening to the Entrepreneur Addiction Podcast. Talk to you next week. See you. Voice: Making business loans simple, this has been the entrepreneur addiction podcast, helping you secure the capital you need, with your host Brock Blake, Dan Bischoff, and Patrick Wiscombe. Heard exclusively at Lendio.com.